How did you meet Elliot Goldenthal?
I met Elliot because I admired his score to “Batman Forever”. Elliot is artistically very enthusiastic and overt. I like that.
When your film is scored, what do you want it to for your film?
The nature of the result in “Heat” was that it was going to be somewhat eclectic. I’ll give you an example of the opposite. In “McCabe and Mrs. Miller” there is this spectacular Leonard Cohen score that’s almost like a march; it repeats and repeats and repeats. It’s a wonderful idea on how to use music in a film. I was actually after something else in this and wanted to keep the individual worlds of these characters discrete from each other. The music actually keyed into each character more than keying to the tonality of the film.
Why did you hire Elliot?
He was aggressive and overt. I don’t like a passive, self-limiting score. I really think music is an active component and for this particular film the aggressive, proactive inclination that Elliot has as a composer really made him perfect casting to do the score.
Do you encourage the composer you hire to experiment with new scoring techniques in the hope that you will get a new and original sound for your film?
Yes. I had ideas and we bounced them back and forth a lot. I was influenced by Glen Branca and his guitar orchestra recordings, they were important. He experiments with one-hundred-and-twenty guitars, and taught for guitar orchestra in the sixties and seventies. Kind of an experimental composer. I was also excited about baroque music a lot.
So you’re looking for that different sound?
First of all, I’m even thinking about the film score in pre-production and already accumulating music that I’m interested in. By the time the composer comes along, I’ve got a palette – the musical equivalent of paint chips – that we can start short-handing each other with. I start to send the composer musical samples; “It’s something like this,” and he sends material back to me, “Do you need something like that?” Then I say, “Yes, exactly.” All that gives the composer a direction to go in; it gives him an indication of tone, color, and rhythm. All those indications are where I want a cue to go, what’s exciting to me for certain sequences, and what the feeling for the armored van robbery, for example, ought to be like. What we should have, if anything, under the big bank robbery sequence or everything leading up to this or what music should be there after Hanna kills Neil McCauley or leading into it. They’re very strong indications and that’s what a director does.
When you’re working with a great composer, like working with a great actor or cameraman, which you really thrill to as a director, it’s what the composer is going to discover when he takes your direction, and then his artistic creation builds on that, as Elliot’s did – that’s when you get really great musical composition. I think Elliot’s work on “Heat” is great. It’s just terrific.
By nature, are you a perfectionist or ever pleased with the results of your projects?
I know extremely well what I want. I know in great detail, because I put a lot of work into it, what my expectation for a scene might be. So I put a lot of work into it and have a high expectation. I wouldn’t call it perfectionism; I have a high expectation. I put a lot of time and work into it so, when it hits the mark, you bet it’s pretty high. I can’ always look at one of my films and say, “We hit it here and we did not hit it there.” I’m loath to ever bullshit myself. And I temper that somewhat because otherwise everybody around me gets depressed [laughter].
How did you communicate with Elliot what type of score you wanted for your film?
We talked a lot and then we’d send pieces of music back and forth. I’d say, “I’m hearing this and it’s a D minor,” or some other thing. And a couple of days later he’d send me a tape with thirty seconds of this, ten seconds of that, and twenty seconds of that, and “Is that what you’re thinking about?” We would exchange ideas by lots of contact, like getting together personally and sending tapes FedEx to each other. The important thing is that when Elliot is intensely composing, a very intense three to four weeks of creativity where he’s knocking out stuff very fast, that’s something you don’t interfere with if you’re a smart director because that’s when Elliot’s doing all his great work.
In the beginning you suggest, you define, what’s going to work dramatically for the film and what’s not. You explain the dramatic situation of the scene and how the music is supposed to work in that scene as I’ve envisioned it, and what kind of music I’ve been hearing. A composer like Elliot will take one of my suggestions and build on it, or he says, “What about this?” and he takes my suggestion and provides something that’s much better than it. Then I might abandon what I was thinking and embrace what he came to me with. You do all this at an early stage and it builds your platform.
Now you have a second stage where Elliot actually is composing and making the music. In that role you take a step back and let the man do his thing. Then you go sit there on the mixing stage, and you might manipulate it somewhat and you may decide what’s in it and what’s not in it, but you’ve got to take that step back and let the guy do his work.
What did you find unique about Elliot?
He’s fearless. That’s great. Al Pacino’s fearless. Al will not be afraid to make a fool of himself and that’s how he hits the high notes. If you go after hitting the high notes, you’re not going to hit the high notes one-hundred percent of the time. And when you miss, you really miss. You have to be fearless to have enough courage to constantly go after getting those high notes because you are going to miss and it’s going to be silly and everything else, but you still have the balls to go after hitting the high notes. Elliot is artistically fearless. He’s bold and fearless in that respect.
Did Elliot’s film score to “Heat” satisfy your vision as a filmmaker?
Yes. I just wish we had more time. We got all the work done and everything was done, but I wish we had more time in the mix because some of his cues that he did I would want to have explored more fully than I did. There were some things that Elliot did that got short-changed a little bit because we were in such an accelerated rate of post-production. On some of his cues a better job could have been done to bring out their qualities in the film mix and not his music mix. What I’m saying is, his score was even better than what’s in the film.
Will you hire Elliot to score for you again?
Sure. Absolutely, on the right film; it’s all casting.