Often called "the black sheep of Hollywood", Thomas Newman – the son of Alfred, the brother of David and cousin of Randy – received his first two Academy Award nominations in 1995, for “The Shawshank Redemption” and “Little Women”. Darren Cavanagh chats with the highly interesting composer on his latest scores and his career.
First and foremost, let me congratulate you on your two Academy Award Nominations. Quite an achievement by any film composer's standards.
I guess so; it was kind of surprising.
It was?
Yeah, I was very surprised
What is your general opinion of the Academy Awards? Particularly, with regard to the film score category?
In terms of what I think of it as an honour as it applies to me or as an award in general? Or both?
Both would be good.
It's an award from your peers, so on that level it's quite an honour. I feel this year particularly reflects some of the younger writers which is nice and refreshing. In terms of myself, I've never been nominated before. It was early in the morning when I found out. A wonderful wake up call. A friend called and said, I'd not got one but two nominations. A nice surprise.
Now, the obvious knock on effect of being nominated twice must surely mean a dramatic increase in notoriety and projects offered. Have you noticed any changes yet?
I've gotten a lot of calls of congratulations, but not yet. It's only been about a week since the announcement.
They move fast in Hollywood.
I have no idea what it means because I have no experience with this before. I hope you are right but I don't know that for a fact.
Are you now in the desirable position of being able to pick and choose the projects that you would prefer to work on?
I guess I can. I always hope that I can have some control over my work. Then at the some time, you never know what you're going to get. Despite the promise of any given project, there is obvious glee and disappointment depending on the circumstances. So you just try and make your best choices and sometimes they [laughs] don't end up being so good. You just try to keep doing the work I think.
Working with Female Directors
What are you currently working on, with whom, and how is the project developing?
I'm working on a Disney movie called “Unstrung Heroes”; the director is Diane Keaton. I'm supposed to start recording in about two weeks, then after that, I'm working on a movie with an Australian director called Jocelyn Moorhouse called “How To Make an American Quilt”.
Diane Keaton the actress?
Yes.
Has she directed before?
I think she's done a documentary. But, I think this is her first feature
What is the genre – comedy?
It's hard to describe. Basically, it's the story of a family. It has comedic moments but ultimately, it's the story of family interaction.
You've worked with quite a few female directors now including Susan Seidelman, Penny Marshall, and Gillian Armstrong. How do you find working with female directors as opposed to men?
It's really no different. At the very least I work for them. They'll come over to my studio and accept or reject me as anybody would. I it's really no different. Other than you could say the film may reflect a certain vibe; it’s a vibe I imagine of personality rather than of gender.
‘Reckless’ Class of ’84
That's an interesting viewpoint. Okay, moving wifely [sic] from the present to the past. Could you give me a brief breakdown of your background and how you got into film scoring in the first place?
All right. My father Alfred Newman was a film composer who died when I was quite young. He came out to Hollywood in the early 1930s with Irving Berlin. He worked on some of the early Berlin musicals, like “Mother Wore Tights” and “Alexander’s Ragtime Band”. So there was always music going on around the house. I studied piano and musical composition at college. I had a friend who had become a rather prolific producer called Scott Rudin. He helped me get involved in movie called “Reckless” in 1984.
For MGM?
Yeah, it was my first job. Directed by James Foley which was also his first job. He's gone on to direct “After Dark, My Sweet” and “Glengarry Glen Ross” amongst other things. So that's kind of how I got into it. I just kind of found myself there. It was never a job I wanted in a way. I guess because of the whole family thing. You know, you feel like you're going to be one of them.
It is quite an incredible family dynasty.
The Newman school of fish.
That's the one [laughs].
It's odd, but on a certain level really nice with all our music floating around.
I interviewed your brother David Newman in 1991 when he was scoring “Paradise” and I would say he seems to score more along the lines of your father in a traditional sense as opposed to your experimental style.
You could say that from the outside looking in, although he has adapted electronics. He is an exceptionally-trained musician and a really fine conductor as well as a composer. Guess you could say ultimately, he has worked in that mould. I think he has demonstrated far more than that. He ends up working all the time. He is never not busy.
Where Not To Score
Stylistically, regarding yourself, I see your style as moreover where not to score, as where to.
Oh well, I've never thought of it that way. That's an interesting way of looking at it. I've said this before but I always think I want the actors to look at their movies and not hate me for ruining the subtlety and nuance of their performances.
That's an interesting point I've never heard before.
Film composing is interesting in that it is a last ditch creative effort in so far as the movie has been shot and cut. Everything has been done and the composer comes along and con really zig or zag the movie the wrong way. I always get nervous about that. You know, like suddenly changing the intention of the films direction.
Recalling your score [the CD, I haven't seen the film yet] to “Little Women”, the music is broken down into small sequences that are very intense and emotional in an overall scale of one to three minutes. Is that deliberate?
It's interesting because that's almost circumstantial rather than by creative design. In “Little Women” there gets to be the issue of how does time pass when you're adapting a book and there are so many things you have to fit in. The transitional moments where music speaks becomes abbreviated by virtue of theft that they end up being less important than the dramatic scene. In the case of “Shawshank” there was a lot of music and longer cues.
A fascinating aspect of “Shawshank’s” score I noticed on my first viewing having enjoyed its many surprises and nuances, was that I actually had difficulty recalling where the score was and how it had functioned.
Where the music came and went?
Yes. The music had a real ebb and flow; deliberately lacking distinction when required, yet it was distinctive.
There again I think you have to compliment the film makers on that because it's such an involving movie. On a certain level it's a fun movie to watch and in comes the music and you're so involved in the film you don't notice. But, on the other hand, I guess that's what the music is supposed to do. To kind of tease you a little bit more and involve you a little bit more without you feeling like someone has crashed a cymbal near your ear [laughs].
Back to the Early Days
Okay, we've briefly touched upon “Shawshank” and “Little Women”, but I'd like to go back now and ask you about your experiences and reflections on three old scores; “Desperately Seeking Susan”, “Less Than Zero”, and “Men Don’t Leave”.
Wow! Some early movies. So you just want me to recall them to you?
Yes, basically to reflect upon the scores now in hindsight and relay how you felt about them at the time.
I’ll take them in the order that I did them. “Desperately Seeking Susan” was probably the most successful movie I did early on in my career. It was a lovely experience because of that. I mean, it's always wonderful to think that a movie you're involved in finally gets noticed and along with it the score. I remember there was very little money to record the score and it was like doing it in your own shop kind of situation. And at that time it was great because I was still coming to terms with my own sense of musical expression and choices of colours and instruments. I felt on a certain level I was able to reflect a personal style.
Definitely.
The movie allowed for me to get into the music that I liked. It was a time of stylistic discovery for me and a very important movie on that level. “Less Than Zero” which came, I think, a year or two later.
1987.
Yeah. To this day I'll always thank Jon Avnet who produced it and gave me my first chance to stand in front of an orchestra. I'd worked with an orchestra on small occasions before, but this was the first time I'd been able to stand in front of a fairly sizeable string orchestra. About sixty players. At the time it seemed like an odd idea to a tot of people, because the movie was all about kids growing up with a VC hip soundtrack. At the same time, I thought it might have been very interesting to use a string orchestra just for its lush beauty; its decadent beauty. And that was a lot of fun. Again, I think I was able to start experimenting and exploring melody. Up to that point I don't think I'd been that interested in melody. I was more interested in colour, pulse and rhythm. And, it finally hit me that Hollywood loves a good melody. It's not a revelatory comment.
It's something they can grasp and recognise. Makes them feel at ease.
That's right. Then in the end it becomes a very helpful thing because you can use it again and again. So with “Less Than Zero” I was starting to learn about refrain and the notion of repeated melody aiding you in terms of getting through a job. The great thing was, I was still able to do some of the electronic stuff in contrast. There was a lot of stylistic variety which was fun.
I felt it was very successful.
I thought so too and thanks for saying that. It was a tough score but the film was beautifully shot and I enjoyed working with the director Marek Kanievska. In terms of “Men Don’t Leave”, Paul Brickman was someone who I'd met around the time I did my first movie, “Reckless”. And his movie “Risky Business” had just come out. I was very impressed not just with the music in “Risky Business” but with the way in which it was used. Very confident and again it seemed like he was using music like I'd never heard before yet longed to hear. I found that I loved listening to it. I mean, I guess that’s a lot of Monday morning quarter backing.
Trying to get a good score out of Tangerine Dream is difficult at the best of times but they are very prolific.
Yeah, and I think Paul is the kind of person who knows how to pull things out. I think he'd actually gone to Germany and worked with them. In any event, I thought the image and music worked great together, very sensually used and I was very impressed. Then, through a mutual friend I got to know him. Knew him for several years. Then he went on to do his next movie which was “Men Don’t Leave” and I was always secretly hoping that he'd hire me and [laughs] he did. On a certain level that was a huge break for me as he was such a renowned film maker, so respected, and it was a more dramatic movie than a lot of the movies I'd done before, excepting “Less Than Zero”.
Work Instead of Persona
Do you feel your projects have initiated from the film makers you have worked with or from the actual music you have composed?
I think both. But, I also believe the more your career moves forward the more people get to know you by your work as opposed to you as a person. Ultimately, that's what you want because I think it's nice to represent yourself with your work as opposed to your persona. Because, in the end your persona is meaningless when you sit down to write. Aside from the fact that I imagine your style comes from who you are. I hope that answers your question.
Yes, that's an excellent breakdown.
To add to that, “Men Don’t Leave” was an opportunity just to go further. Again, Paul was very interested in melody and me not falling back on my tricks. He's such a hard worker himself he brings it out of you. He was... I don't want to say difficult; he is a very personable and kind human being, but he's also unstoppable in terms of his wish for creative perfection.
So, more or less you see the films that you have worked upon as projects in experimentation and a search for yourself and style?
It's true and I like that you say that because on a certain level it's all trial and error. I try not to go into anything where I think, Oh! I know how to do this. You know? No sweat, I can do it in three days with my hands tied behind my back. Then I think something translates to the idea that you are making no imaginative effort. Sit at the feet of the experience as it were. So I like the idea of experimenting. You always find that you get to places you never thought you would. And, you enjoy the experience when you do.
‘Little Women’: A Stylistic Surprise
When I first heard the main title to “Little Women” I was surprised and shocked that it was you because it was very different from what I'd heard before; an orchestral, trumpet laced, very English sound. Not very Thomas Newman I thought.
It's true. You have to be honest when you look at a movie like that and say that I have no business being experimental here because it's not the nature of the movie. I should add, as opposed to colouring experiments, you have to just deal with notes. It's more a movie about notes than sound or colour.
So, would you sometimes trip yourself up and think, Oops! This is how I would like it to sound, but it really isn't right for this scene in the movie.
You always have to guard against that. That's the notion of creative vanity. The idea that you want any movie to reflect you because in the end that's what you're interested in. Then you realize that doesn't get you very far because if It is disparate in the end to the feeling of the movie then you're just going to get into trouble. You have to rely on your ability to be honest to the experience.
I find that idea very interesting in that you don't hear many film composers express that notion of personal experimentation. They talk mainly in terms of drama and music. Again, the trial and error debate is a totally different ball game, but one that lacks explanation or expression
Well that's the fun of it in the end. You have to figure that when movies started, that the idea of putting music to them was a total trial and error experience. However derivative music was in the old days in and of itself, it became refreshing and unique in terms of how it was joined with the image.
I think that's an adjective that totally sums up your style, 'refreshing'.
I like that adjective [laughs].
That is the one I'd used to describe your style, along with ambient.
I like that too. I hope I can continue to be that way. I love music a lot and the places it can take you. Its transporting abilities. I remember Marsalis said once, 'You go into the recording studio and hope for the magic'. To a certain degree you don't know that you'll get there, but you have to trust that you will .
Charles Ives and John Cage
What composers influence you most and why?
I like Charles Ives a lot. Are you talking about film composers or just regular composers?
Both.
I like Charles Ives just because he is constantly surprising; a true American composer insofar as he seemed more interested in expression for its own sake as opposed to expression that reflected a Western European aesthetic. I like his spirit an awful lot. Who else do I like? I guess I have an ultimate appreciation for John Cage who seems to have inspired everybody who is working today. From rap down to anybody. How we appreciate sound and how sound travels into our ears.
Well, John Cage basically deconstructed music in terms of 'sound' instead of musical notes and melody.
Yeah, that's all got to be John Cage. He is the person who started us thinking that way. In the end he ends up being the most modern of us all.
Do you listen to much film music?
I find I don't listen to that much not because I don't like to, I just haven't. If the other question is what film composers have I liked? I like a lot of Jerry Goldsmith's work. It's hard to say whether I've been influenced that much by film music though.
Jerry Goldsmith just never stops working.
I know.
Are you conscious and careful about the quantity of films you score?
You just want to do enough so you are inspired and I think by that, I bet it will ensure working for a longer period of time.
Do you try to work by that ethic?
I try. It's hard sometimes because you get offers and you like people you go and meet and you want to do their movies. And yet, sometimes you have to kind of say no because you realize it will give you no time to do what you want. It can be tough. I guess I should say I'm learning. I'm learning my limits.
How do you see your style and approach developing in the future?
I don't know. I don't have a clue.
So, would that inspiration always be dictated by the movies?
I imagine that's true. I like messing around with colours and on that level I will always keep experimenting with what kinds of sounds I can get out of any kind of instrument from tuba to piccolo. Other than that, yeah, it's hard to say, 'Here's what I want to do in the future'. I just want to kind of grab what's there and make it useful.
Right up to date again before we conclude let's return to your latest project “Unstrung Heroes”. Are you composing the score for that film right now and what basic musical approach are you adopting?
Yes! In fact, before you called, here I was in my studio having good ideas. In terms of approach, some of the family members in the movie are a little on the whacked-out side. So I thought it would be fun to experiment with plucked string instruments, even untuning them, making them kind of flabby and fat. Trying to see what I could discover about what kind of emotional response you would get from odd tuning of string instruments. Unless, it's an utterly pretentious idea tied into the notion of the title being unstrung.
Creatively do you always give yourself that freedom in the initial stages?
You always do. Because, you figure you're going to be rejected along the way so you might as well go for it. There has got to be a place at the beginning of any process where you're free associating to your hearts content and loving every minute of it. You know there is going to be a time when people are going to come in and hate eight out of the ten ideas you have. But before that you want to get to the places that you like truly and as effortlessly as you can. It gives you a frame of reference if nothing else. If the choice then is having to be more conservative because after all it's a movie, blah, blah, blah, then you go from there.
Diane Keaton, is she musically literate?
I think so. Yeah, she's a very, very smart person.
Well Thomas, thanks for a great interview. I'd like to just add all the best for Oscar night whatever the outcome.
Well thanks; I'm sure I have twice as much chance of losing now [laughs].